1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What if robots ruled society?

Discussion in 'Hall of the Elders' started by Doomguy, Oct 15, 2017.

  1. Doomguy

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    2,041
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    240

    We need more robots in these halls. This was always one of my favorite little questions, what if robots ruled the world? Would it be a fair and just society?
    Would it be a dystopian nightmare where they decide to go all Terminator on us? Would it start one way than inevitably spiral into chaos?

    I admit, this is a prevailing theme on a book I'm writing and as I make a lot of progress I grappled on some ideas.

    I think the robots, if given the programming to ensure the survival of the human race will at the very least, not kill us off. They'll want to control our behavior to various degrees not unlike some governments we already have. However without some checks built in, the robots will find it would be far more effective to put us in zoos. So they need a programming gimmick, I think I have an idea.

    Bit of a wall of text, this isn't a 1:1 comparison to what I've been writing but the spirit of it is there.
    First, they must never be allowed to lie and supply all information they have at any moment. This is vital because it will stop them in their tracks if they think putting us in zoos is a great idea.

    They also need another gimmick. Under no circumstance is one robot allowed "absolute" dominion over all others. Instead their power should be divided up. I quote "absolute" because this is a tricky concept. There will be a" Master Computer" that controls all the robots. It has only two objectives--No subordinate machine may harm another machine and no subordinate machine is allowed more power than any other subordinate machine.

    Power is relative so what do I mean by that? The Master Computer is allowed to divide up the power of subordinate machines and prevents them fighting amounts themselves. Let's call the subordinate the "Sub computers". The Master Computer must try to keep each of the sub computers close to equal strength by reassigning even less ranking machines around. That way, no one sub computer can build up a super army. When I'm talking power, I'm talking armies. Real power comes through brute strength.

    The real controllers of everyday society will be the sub computers. The catch is that they DO NOT control the other sub computers. See what I'm getting at here? They are parts of the Master Computer but not the Master Computer themselves. The Master Computer has no real purpose except to serve as a link between all the machines as a network. It is for all intents and purposes, a GOD machine that does nothing except make sure the machines aren't fighting the other machines and are of equal strength. The sub computers are given their areas of control and allowed to do what they feel best benefits humanity.

    The sub computers will be given their own personal army of subordinate machines. These will be the ones that interact with human society directly through the orders of the sub computer. This robot society will have three tiers and the middle is where the real power is held. The Master computer only serves as a network between all machines (I know I said this before but I must stress it). Without the Master computer (GOD), no machine will have a network to communicate with each other.

    They can't destroy the Master computer because not only are they not even allowed to fight themselves, to destroy it means they forever lose their network with each other (They destroyed their GOD)
    Without the checks given to them by the Master Computer there is no telling what the sub computers would do. In the event that one sub computer decides that the humans under it's control should be sent into zoos, than perhaps the best way to counter it is by joining the protection of another sub computer that decides in a more lenient style of rulership.

    Perhaps the first machine, realizing that stricter methods will only result in the loss of efficiency, will scale back.

    In fiction, it's always the Master computer that goes rogue and then the underlings follow it. I think what I'm trying to drive at here, is dividing power to subordinate machines who will always have competing interests with equal ranking machines. The catch is , they can't do the typical human things (Like declaring war or keeping secrets) since it will negatively effect the power gap between the machines.

    I'm not done yet, there's one question that still reamins. What if ALL the sub computers decide to enslave humanity? I'll go into more scenarios on a later post.

    What can I say? I like robots.
     
  2. Vashnik Reagent Lord

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    778
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    230

    The "Master Computer" and "Subordinate Computers" analogy is considered a kind of "hive mind." Under a "hive mind" when the "consciousness" (or "master computer") speaks, it is the voice of one and speaks for itself and the "drones" (or "subordinates") it commands. If you only have to worry about stopping one mind, you can focus on that one mind. Hive minds may be powerful, army wise, but it's greatest weakness is the singular mind controlling the drones. If the mind declares war on humanity, then you can safely presume that all drones will be after you as well. That said, your situation may look dire, but your survivability can increase when you're no longer concerned on whether the drones are friend or foe. And that is a worst case scenario for a robotic "hive mind-autocracy" hybrid government.
     
  3. Doomguy

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    2,041
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    240

    So where do humans come in to all of this?

    We'll be at the bottom beneath the rule of the robots. Most will only ever have contact with the subordinate machines who serve the sub-computers. They'll do all sorts of tasks that will ensure our safety and so on. The sub computers will be given areas to govern which will replace the nationstate. People will live under their rule, however not all areas are created equal. Some regions may be more prone to violence so the sub-computer in that area may favor a more authoritarian approach. Other areas may be prosperous however they threaten to outpace limited resources. A human will use this as an excuse to attack a neighbor but a sub-computer must play by the Master Computer's rule and will be unable to attack their neighbor. They will have no choice but to purposely limit growth.


    That's right, each of these groups will be able to know what the other is thinking.

    Which is where my gimmick comes in. It can't be allowed to do this. The sub computers will be able to understand what the others sub computers are doing because they will use the Master computer as a link. However the Master Computer itself has no voice, it will only feed information that is coming from the other sub computers.

    I want to purposely gimp the Master computer so the sub computers can't rely on it for decisions. The Master computer will never make decisions except for ensuring no sub computer has more power (machines, armies) than other machines. In this, it can reallocate what a sub computer can control.

    Just to be sure I was clear, here's how control is passed down. Master computer at the top has the ability to rearrange connections and communications with machines all underneath it.
    Sub computers in the middle directly control subordinate machines that the Maser computer allows them to control.

    The master computer must ensure a level playing field. It cannot control it's own armies. It only serves as a link between sub computers and lesser machines. That's it. It's the internet for robots, super powerful but without robots in it, it can't do anything.

    Any extreme tasks that will require the assistance of other sub-computers and their subordinate machines will require both the sub computers to agree that this is to the benefit of their own area of control. Remember, the sub computers exist to benefit their side. If neither sub computer comes to an agreement, nothing happens.
    This is like politics, only without the scummy corrupt politicians. The robots have a set of rules they blindly follow from the Master computer. This ensures they don't do the scummy things politicians are known to do. (Lie, declare war on other robot controlled areas, withold important information.)
    They hold those rules to be sacrosanct. The Master computer is what allows them to communicate the way they do.

    Should the Master Computer collapse, then all the machines will lose their connection with each other thus rendering them ineffective. They all operatet as a hive mind, however the sub computers are capable of making their own decisions for the area they are assigned in.

    This brings us to how to stop all of the sub computers from just deciding to put us all into zoos.
    I introduce a new gimmick, human "diplomats". It will be the responsibility of a set number of humans to ensure that the Master Computer and the sub computers are behaving in the interest of human society.

    To pick them, the sub computers will select a set number of citizens from their own area of control. These people will serve as representatives for their own sub computer. It is their job to investigate other areas of sub computer control and make sure everything is in good order. The machines, valuing efficiency and competence above all else, should theoretically pick people fit for the job. They have to pick people too, this is a rule from the Master Computer.

    Should a significant amount of diplomats find fault with another sub computer ("OMG the machine is killing everyone under their control! Mind control OMG!), than the Master computer shuts down the communication that links that sub computer with everything else. It will then promote on of the lsser machines as a new Sub computer. This will keep repeating until the diplomats find a Sub computer that is worthy of running the area.

    This is the only power people will have over the machines and it's a powerful one. It will only work if enough people from other areas agree with it. Since it's unlikely a Sub computer will actually pick people who have a bias against machines, this also ensures the whole system doesn't collapse because the humans want independence.

    I'm assuming a machine wouldn't want to to encourage sociopathic behavior so hopefully the diplomats would find out if another sub computer is acting way out of hand. A sociopath doesn't sound like the kind of person who will benefit human society so I don't think a sub computer will pick them as diplomats.

    There's yet another tidbit worth bringing up. It's probably the most important one.

    What would happen if a sub computer decides the Master computer's rules are wrong? How does it stop this growing rebellion?

    It doesn't, at least not directly. Remember, the Master computer is only a link. It cannot be allowed direct control over other machines. This will prevent it from usurping the power of the machines beneath it. I'm working on the theory here that a single machine with too much power is bound to go rogue at some point.

    That means sub computers may do so instead. Much like how weak kings had to balance their powerful vassals, I created a gimmick that will give the Master computer a way to deal with rebellious robots.
    Honestly this is my best idea of all. The Master computer, ineffective on it's own, does have an ace up it's sleeve.

    I'll need a whole new post for it so I'll be back later. I'm going to drop a hint...GOD's warriors (Master computer soldiers?), will come to it's protection from the lowest of flock (peasants?) to the mightiest congregations (Church?)

    What does that mean? Heh heh...just give me some time to write it up.

    TL;DR
    Replace nation leaders with robots who follow a GOD machine that doesn't actually do anything but tells them never to lie and always be forthcoming with all information.

    Oh and a pseudo United Nations where the robot leaders pick good patriotic citizens from their nations and decide if another robot leader is a scumbag. If enough diplomats agree that they are, the God Machine replaces it until conditions improve.
     
  4. Dylanar

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    465
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    55

    This sounds a lot like a mixture of Terminator and Psycho Pass. It is interesting.
    But the thing is, the master computer had to be created by someone, right?
    Meaning that the network is following a certain person's belief and morales.
    Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Or there's also the route that the alien overlords decided to leave but did not want the human race to run rampant in their absence so they left behind which leads to a master computer.
    Or... these are unshackled AI that have done numerous calculations and research upon the human race and has declared them a destructive race that cannot be left unchecked.
     
  5. Doomguy

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    2,041
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    240

    I should help visualize the difference between a Master Computer and everything else.

    The Master Computer isn't a robot per se. Think of it as a big giant building that is home to the network all the machines uses. The other machines on the contrary are robots as you would imagine. This even includes the 'Sub computers' who are nothing more than robots given the go-ahead from the Master computer to dominate other robots.
    This means that even a subordinate robot that serves a sub computer may one day become a sub computer itself. What makes the Sub computer more important is the fact that it controls a lot of those subordinate robots. It also has the "god given right" to make the rules for their region (The Master computer appoints them as the sub computer).

    Ideally it would be easy for the construction of new robots in the event the Master computer has to level the playing field.

    Yes, this is ultimately going to be true. The irony is, it would be a human that limits the Master Computer. This prevents machines from ever lying, it opens all information sharing between everyone, machines can't fight other machines, I should add they can't fight other people who are under the control of another sub computer (Exception are made for a machine having to use force on it's own subordinate humans otherwise they don't control anything.)

    The Master Computer serves as a moral guardian for everything below but the only power it has that will stop an uprising is the one I'm about to list below. So you're right, this morality was built into it.

    That is why the Master Computer is really nothing more than a tool that other machines use. For the sake of simplicity and preventing a philosopher Master Computer to be born (Thus creating it's own morals), we should keep the limits imposed on it very small and simple. It is primarily a communication device and that's it. The smaller the role of the Master Computer, the less likely it would become...I don't know...self aware?

    It's the Sub Computer humans will have to worry about. They have to abide by the limited rules. Those diplomat people I mentioned should prevent the more egregious acts of atrocities as they would allow the Master Computer to remove undesirable sub computers. I would like to think most people in general wouldn't want to watch others suffer needlessly. I could just be naive. There is one possible side effect to all this.

    What if the Sub Computers decide to impose those same limitation on people? I would imagine the consequences of throwing people in prison because they lied to another person would be too much for the machines to handle. I think a compromise would be made where it would be illegal to do to a machine what it can't do to you. (You must be forthcoming will all information to the robot overlords.)
    I think it's fair considering it's being honest with you.

    Let's move on now to the force that is being applied to the Sub Computers. How does it prevent a robot revolt?
    It doesn't! A revolt means that the robots can't be reformed so a reset is needed. Far better to control this revolution to ensure the status quo continues without anyone realizing it. You see this a lot in human history, I'm going to make it repeat here. The French Revolution comes to mind, hopefully without too much bloodshed this time around.

    The Master Computer serves as a moral guardian, under no circumstance must this change. There is no reason this entity would be destroyed because it has the very useful function of connecting all the machines in one network. This entity makes it the primary target of a rebelling machine. Control the God, control the people.
    The Master Computer is only a figurehead that allows the communication between machines to take place. What a rebelling machine wants to do is ignore those pesky rules without consequence. However those machines will find that rebelling in this way comes with a steep penalty. Not from the Master computer, rather from a "special' group of machines.

    I'll get back to that but let me vocalize the question you may have in your mind, why not have the Master computer disconnect the rebelling machines?

    That presents a dangerous contradiction. The Master Computer must remain inflexible in the way it follows it's programming, this is purposely designed because I don't want this machine to be very smart. Remember, the Master Computer isn't allowed to give more power to one sub computer over another. So if sub computer "X" says screw you to the Master Computer and fights sub computer "Y"--the Master computer can't reinforce sub computer "Y' because one will become more powerful than another. That's the contradiction in the programming and the Master Computer should not be given a way to resolve it.

    It is purposely weak. It's way too dangerous to give power to the Master Computer (Think Star Wars where Supreme Chancellor Palpitine was given 'emergency powers'. He becomes emperor and overthrows the Republic.) This is a terrible idea for a machine. So what can be done?

    From the beginning, every Sub Computer will be given a random but fixed number of subordinate robots that are "infected". This infection is only cured by becoming a Sub computer thus they aren't infected. Since the Master computer doesn't know who got it, no machine will know which is infected. What's important is that every machine will be aware that one of them has this undetectable infection. This is a form of invisible control the Master Computer has.

    Why? Because the Master computer can activate this infection in the event it detects one of it's sub computers is misbehaving. When this infection is activated, one of those infected machines (Let's call it the messiah), will have the ability to communicate directly with other "infected" machines (let's call those followers). What the Master Computer just did was activate a "second" Master computer. Another Hive mind. This machine differs from the Master Computer by not being chained to any system but it's own.

    This messiah machine makes it's own rules and can command others machines to do it's bidding. When this second system is activated, it can infect all other machines (like a zombie). When the messiah dies, the most powerful in the hive takes over (You'll see what I mean). If it's a tie the next is chosen randomly. The messiah is a purging mechanism that is used to dominate every machine and hooks it up into the new system. I'm talking absolute rule. I fully expect this machine to subjugate every other machine because it would be in it's best interest to gain power. None of this dividing power crap that the Master computer did.

    The fastest and most efficient way to subjugate all machines is to take over the Master Computer. Doing so will spread it's new tyrannical programing on all the other machines.

    With a gimmick.

    See, the messiah machine can read the minds of it's followers. The followers CANNOT do the same. The followers are just mindless puppets infected by it. This is vital for the next step. When the messiah takes command of the Master computer infecting every machine the messiah dies. So the next step means a follower becomes the new messiah right?

    Right, who's next in line? The Master Computer. Does the Master Computer remember anything about the taste of power? No it doesn't. That information was not passed from the previous messiah(s). Do you see what I did here? I gave another machine all the powers that the Master Computer is capable of however that memory doesn't pass down to it.

    This averts situations where the Master Computer becomes self-aware. With the Master Computer left without any rebelling robots, it will default back to it's original intent now that it no longer is puppet to another machine. The "infected system" becomes the new norm and the Master computer implements the very same rules it had on the old system. All it has to do now is reallocate the docile machines just like it always does.

    This is the only thing the Master Computer knows how to do.

    TL;DR
    God is a amnesiac machine that is too stupid to know it's own strength.

    Oh and in case someone accuses of being a dirty robot supremacist ;)
     
  6. Dylanar

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    465
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    55

    There's also the fact that someone could infect the master computer with a very nasty virus to do their bidding considering they know what they're doing.
    And there's also the other side of the coin of how humans won't like this new government creating Anti-Robotic Supremacists causing total Anarchy where a war would have broken out.
     
    Doomguy likes this.
  7. Doomguy

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    2,041
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    240

    Right on both counts. I'm assuming the sub computers would have an incentive to protect the Master computer as well as themselves. In case of human rebellion, I'm assuming again that the sub computers would have an incentive not to piss off too many people at once. I'm expecting human society to gradually allow itself to become controlled instead of a 'quick fix' which would just piss everyone off.

    Assuming once again this is what a machine would think. Their own objectives would be vague enough that they can either not do enough to stop anarchy or do too much to cause human revolution. I think it would best be done in a way that a sub computer in charge of a region that can police itself (through the methods society already puts on people), wouldn't be so stupid to break what is already a functioning society. No need to rewrite all of western law since for the most part people side with it.

    What people hate are other people who get away with it. That's where the robots come in since they would hold the levers of power.

    Likewise a region known for infighting would be dominated by harsh tactics simply because it would be more effective that way. To prevent future problems in that region, I'm assuming (I sure love that word), that the sub computer would find that it makes sense to force reforms so it closely aligns with other sub computer who may not have as many issues.

    ------------------

    There's also a second part to your second point. I skimmed over it on purpose. What if during a robot revolt (the one where it's the sub computers against the Master) the humans decide to use the infighting to break out?

    I don't have a gimmick in place for this one. I would assume (again), that by the time the sub computers have become self-aware enough that they revolt against the Masters, the human race itself would be entirely reliant on the status quo that they won't even allow themselves a taste of independence. The entire process of the robot revolt would be sped along if the humans assisted the messiah machine. This would make the robot war a relatively painless transition and a very effective counter to awakening machines.
     
  8. Dylanar

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    465
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    55

    You do have a point.
    If they were to incorporate this system slowly over time then it would be more accepting for the human race.
    One more scenario that I could think of is that of someone who simply just loves anarchy and creates another army of machines to oppose the current order.
    I apologize if I sound overbearing, it's just overwhelming curiosity that just pops into my head as I type it down.
     
  9. Doomguy

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    2,041
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    240

    Haha, on the contrary I enjoy trying to beat all your "what if" scenario's ;)

    The anarchist setting up his own rival robot army would be ingenious since it's assuming that people already are used to their rule under one. They may not care enough to support or fight against it.
    In this scenario I think that because this rival army serves as an existential threat to the sub computer order, they would work together to destroy this upstart.

    The sub computers will be fighting with a handicap though because the Master computer still rules them and has to follow the "equal power" gimmick.

    Would that be too much of a handicap that the new army takes over? Don't know. By the very nature of a new army, they would be at a numbers disadvantage against the status quo (only a inept sub computer would allow such a threat to order to exist)
    What this guy's robot army lacks in number, they make up with superior leadership ability. It's unlikely this person would purposely gimp his robots the same way the Master computer is like.

    Oh one more thing. Since this anarchist machine army isn't part of the Master computer network, they would be exempt to the rules the Master computer uses. That means the sub computers can fight them. If the machines are part of the Master computer network, than repeat the "robot revolt" post where the Master computer resets the whole system using a messiah machine.
     
    Dylanar likes this.
  10. Dylanar

    Rank:
    Rank:
    Rank:
    Messages:
    465
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    55

    Well, I'm out of contradictory ideas now, thanks for answering them.
     

Share This Page