Abortion

What is your stance on it?

It has been something that has been on my mind for a long time. My own personal stance on it:
Termination of a developing human life is inhumane. Doing it simply for the sake of convenience is wrong. I cannot see how the location of an unborn governs its validity as a human being.
It depends on the circumstances under which an abortion should be performed, such as the case a woman's life is in danger. Of course I can see that being a reasonable case for abortion, but I would call that "self defense."

 

Been a while since I posted here... Okay, sure, let's get back into the swing of it with one of the most sensitive topics in the U.S. over the last century.

I'll try to elaborate more when I have time to actually write a full post. But, the summary of my stance is this:

I am pro-choice. Not pro-abortion, pro-choice. I think it is between the potential mother-to-be and her doctor on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy and no one else, with the choice ultimately being up to the mother. It's important to note that one can be pro-choice without personally supporting the act of abortion. In my case, I don't really have a problem with it, though.

In terms of legislation, I think the government has no business butting into this decision. Not to mention that making abortion illegal has never stopped abortions from occurring, it's just stopped them from occurring safely, leading not only to the termination of the embryo or fetus but to the death of the mother as well. If you want to stop abortions, or, more realistically, curb them, invest in education, healthcare, livable wages, paid leave, and social programs which improve the welfare of your citizens and provide resources for people who are pregnant or will become pregnant. Living conditions, poor wages, lack of time due to work, stress, an inability to easily access affordable healthcare, and more all factor into a mother's decision on whether or not to terminate, and if they decide to, it's going to happen whether abortion is illegal or not.

But, perhaps, if not most importantly, then certainly of great concern should be investing in sex education and access to free or affordable contraceptive. Like it or not, people are going to have sex and it's not only unhelpful and unreasonable, but utterly ludicrous to pretend that sex should only be for procreation. If people, especially young adults and teenagers, don't understand consent and safe sex and don't have easy access to contraceptive (not just condoms but birth control and IUDs) then unwanted pregnancies are bound to happen, which, as you can imagine, leads to termination.

As to why I'm okay with abortion, I'm not at all religious, I don't believe in "souls" and I don't believe in the "life begins at conception" crap. If you don't have a functioning brain and nervous system, you're not alive. Period. So, during the earliest stages of pregnancy, as far as I'm concerned, you're not dealing with a human life. But, moreover, even if we ignore that, if you don't want to host any kind of foreign matter, alive or not, in your own body, you shouldn't have to. No one should be able to take away anyone's bodily autonomy.

Also, I don't think that life is inherently worth living. I think there are situations that a mother can be in that a child is just better off not being born into. And our foster care system is a joke. A morbidly depressing joke that your creepy uncle brings up at dinner and everyone looks away in the hopes that he'll just shut up... but he never does.

 

The definition of a life is the moment you hear the heartbeat of not the mother, but the unborn child. I believe that is based on the scientific/medical version if I recall correctly.

Anyways, towards the subject of abortion.
I'm more skeptical of reasons for abortions. Honestly, people shouldn't be having sex if they're not prepared for the consequences, including when birth control initiatives fail (condom breaks, birth control immunity, or other mishaps) and they suddenly think "how did this happen?" or "this shouldn't have happened." You had sex you moron, it's what happens, even when you claim to have done everything to prevent it. The only 100% guaranteed birth control is not having sex to begin with, unless you want to get a vasectomy or your tubes tied. I have no pity on a woman who can't (willingly) keep her legs closed and then gets surprised that she suddenly got pregnant. I have no pity on the guy who get's every woman he knocks up pregnant and then wonders why it happens. They deserve the scrutiny of the public should they share their story of "somehow I got pregnant, even though I used X" or "somehow I got this chick pregnant."

The only way I think an abortion is acceptable is when one of these criteria is met:

1. Raped. (self-explanatory). Must be backed up by a police statement and a rape kit.
2. Mother, child or both could die at child's birth. (Mercy abortion)
3. Child will be born with health risks from the start, which would kill the child anyways. (Mercy abortion).

Sex Education was a mandatory class in my school district, in the US. So there is no damn reason for teens to be so shocked that their "fun" got someone pregnant.

 

In addition to what peeps here have said, I'd like to add another condition that I think people should see as acceptable for termination of pregnancy: if allowed to be born, will the child cause or be susceptible to unnecessary suffering? Eg. Are the parents not in a position where they can give adequate care, such as in poverty or other dangerous conditions.
People act as if life is unquestionably a good thing to have, but I disagree. If a child is only going to be born into a world where it will experience a great deal of suffering, would it not be more sympathetic to end it before it has a chance to think and feel the suffering?

Furthermore, I've seen tales of to-be mothers being pregnant, getting into the late stages, and then having to terminate (due to a dangerous event, like risk to both lives), but Pro-Life people then abusing her for "killing" the child. Honestly, it's disgusting. No one, no one would go through the majority of pregnancy, enduring all the pain and struggle that comes with it, grow attached to the thing growing inside them, only to decide near the end "Nah, screw it, I don't want it anymore." But no, people still abuse the grieving mother for aborting.

Anyaway, I'm obviously pro-choice given what I've said here.

 

There's actually no single trait that defines life, in terms of biology. But, rather a series of traits and states of being.

I think it would have been more accurate for me to say that if something can't think, feel, etc. - if something isn't conscious or aware of their own existence, on some level (not to be confused with the antonym of states like sleep or unconsciousness, in which the brain still functions and one is still aware and thinking, on some level), it isn't alive. The body can function without being alive. After all, everything that we are comes down to electrical signals and chemical reactions and even without the specific signals which make up our consciousness, for lack of a better term, the cogs in the machine that is our bodies can keep turning. But I wouldn't call that life.

As far as I'm aware, sex ed isn't very common in the U.S., currently. It's especially unpopular in the "Bible Belt" (a handful of mid-western and southern states near the Appalachian Mountains in the U.S. whose citizens and policies are overwhelmingly Christian and influenced by Christianity, respectively, for anyone unfamiliar with the term). But in the places where comprehensive sex ed has been implemented, it has resulted in fewer STDs and fewer unwanted pregnancies. This is something that really needs to be universal and something that I kind of wish we wouldn't leave up to the states (see: "Bible Belt").

I don't know what sex ed was like for you, but I had abistence-only sex ed hosted by a teacher who claimed that "the gays are responsible for AIDS." Blatant ignorance and homophobia aside, it just wasn't helpful. Abistence-only boils down to "don't have sex." It doesn't teach consent, safe sex, how to acquire and use contraceptive, basic sexual anatomy, explain what abortion is, what to expect during pregnancy, what to expect as a parent, what your options are should you become pregnant, or provide any relevant or helpful resources.

Teens and young adults understand, at the most basic level, that sex can cause pregnancy. What they don't understand is the gravity of that or, really, much of anything that I just listed.

So, I agree with you to an extent, that people should know what they're getting into. The problem is they don't understand the full depths of it and our current approach, as a nation, to education isn't preparing them to make informed decisions.

Do you believe that abortion should be illegal or just that people shouldn't have them?

Also, I'm going to start casually using the term "mercy abortion" in day-to-day life.

 

I'm on the fence on this particular one, which is why I thought about it, but never listed it in my final posting earlier. I can see reasons for this, but at the same time, it could become just an excuse one could use because it's an escape from the consequences of their actions.

Fair enough point, however I thought by the time you hear a heartbeat, life was established, whether or not it is full consciousness, the organism is functioning and developing at that point. Cells don't have a "brain," but the entire cell functions all the same and we consider that to be alive as opposed to dead, since a cell that cannot reproduce and stops functioning altogether is, for all intents and purposes, dead.

Mid-west, public school. Teacher knew what they were talking about and not some unsupported spiel. Also, abstinence was presented as the best option, but so were other preventative measures (condoms, etc). Everything was presented up front.

Not exactly illegal, but it certainly needs to be frowned upon when there is absolutely no valid reason as I mention before. Abortions should be conditional by medical standards, backed by scientists (specifically medical doctors and biologists) who know the risks of having one vs not having one and can present them in a way that the mother understands based on the mother's known health condition/history.

But just to perform an abortion because of inconvenience should be criminal. And I don't think a law can be made specifically how I think abortions should be handled in such a way that protects the rights of women, but at the same time, the rights of a future child that has already developed a heart that started beating. So at this point, its more on the side of people shouldn't have them, but shouldn't be illegal because there are circumstances that may be called where an abortion would be life saving or, in the case of rape, allows the woman take control of the pregnancy she was forced to have and decide for herself (with recommendations from her doctor who knows her situation, health, etc as mentioned in the previous paragraph).

 

I don't know for certain, but you're probably right in terms of determining the progression of a fetus and when doctors distinguish it from a fertilized egg.

Abstinence is certainly the only sure-fire option. I don't know that I would call it the best option. But is the only way to guarantee beyond any doubt that you won't become pregnant/impregnate someone, and that much should probably be made clear.

If nothing else, yours was probably at least more comprehensive than mine.

 

I'm going to be that guy and say I'm absolutely against this. I can't fathom how people don't see how this is a problem. Unless they think the baby inside isn't life. I just don't know what to say then. It makes me feel sad.

But my biggest beef isn't with those who don't see it as a problem. They picked their belief that the thing inside a women's body isn't life. I can't convince them.
No...the biggest hypocrisy are the people who say they wouldn't do it themselves but are okay with others doing it.
Why not?

And that's where you find confusion. You know how many people I hear say "Well I think it's wrong but it's other person's body"
That applies to many things in a free society and that's okay. I don't care what you smoke, I don't care who you sleep with, I don't care what do on your free time. I may have my deep rooted beliefs on what you are doing but if it only effects you then who am I to judge?

What's not okay is when you think the issue involves someone else. That's where the hypocrisy is. That's where the line should have been crossed. What good are your morals when you don't stick up for those who didn't have a choice?

It's like people are afraid to tell others they are wrong. They rather just look after themselves and act like it has nothing to do with them. They won't confront their own misgivings and rather act like it's just one person's choice. It's hypocritical, if you feel it's wrong then how can you say you're okay if someone else did it?

It's one thing to disagree with how someone lives their life and not care about it. I do that all the time, I'm not an authoritarian theocrat. It's something else entirely when life of another is involved.

I think there are many pro-choice people who do think the baby is life. That most of all, is the saddest thing for me.

That's all I have to say on this. If I made anyone upset I don't apologize. I meant what I said, someone had to do it. And before someone attempts to probe my hardline stance...

Spoiler

If the mother's life is in danger then save the mother. Also rape isn't an excuse to take it out on the baby. However I will happily compromise and get rid of abortions for all but these two circumstances. Both of these situations are rare as it is.

Now I'm in a bad mood :/
I said my piece, God knows I tried.

 

I've never seen abortion particularly as some great moral issue. The vast majority of abortions occur within the first few months of pregnancy when the fetus is neither conscious nor capable of any kind of self-awareness. Assertions of "souls" or "spirits" being formed at the moment of conception are unfounded faith-based claims, so in the end what are we objecting to that we can actually know and confirm? We're flushing out a pile of cells and tissue. That's it. That's all we can objectively claim. Whoopdy do. Who cares.

Abortion just strikes me as yet another non-issue that Republicans drum up every year like Bill O'Reilly's culture war on Christmas because they know they don't actually have any substantive policies to offer their constituents, so using emotionally-charged rhetoric like calling their opponents baby-killers gets their base riled up and motivated to go vote. In the end it's a giant waste of time and a distraction from real issues.

If you actually care about reducing abortions, it's pretty much as has already been covered here. Provide more access to contraceptives, more sex education, and more programs that raise the standard of living so that mothers can feel secure about the environment that they'll be able to raise their child in. However I do have a minor disagreement with BaconMan in that I don't think bodily autonomy necessarily gives someone free rein to end a human life if this were the case, but luckily given the nature of most abortions as I described previously, this never really becomes an issue anyway.

To me the real moral conundrum and where things start to get interesting is with late-terms in the third trimester. In fact even shortly after a baby is born, the level of cognition exhibited by human babies still debatably rivals that of many animals that we consume for food, but most would conclude that murdering a baby once it is already out of the womb is absolutely unacceptable, yet we give a complete free pass to keep murdering cows and pigs en masse for our bacon-loving pleasure. Admittedly this is a potential hypocrisy that I haven't been able to fully reconcile for myself either. I'm just kind of holding out until lab-grown meat becomes a thing so I can go back to being lazy and not have to think about it anymore.

But I'm sure as shit not giving up bacon until then. Sorry folks. Can't do it.

...Party at BaconMan's house tonight.

 

*Reading this as I'm about to go to bed.*

...Wut.

 

Don't ask questions. Just trust me it's gonna be fun.

 

Shit guys, I was on camp! How could I have missed this?!

Regarding thread, I see people are saying that the baby isn't being given the choice to live if an abortion is performed. But... isn't that the case to begin with? It's the parents who make the choice to bring the child into the world, and my mum has always told me this, that I don't owe them anything for raising me because they were the ones who chose to give me existence. (Hell, I'd love some non-existence...)

 

It depends on the situation, of course there's conception with consent then of course with out consent which will of course impregnation. In a perfect world , I would 100% be against abortion but there are lack for services, for rape victims to raise a child, the child can end up having a shitty depressive life due to there circumstance. If it involves rape and there are services to provide better care then ofc I am against abortion. In total I am against it, but I understand that, with out care and support some children can be raised into horrible lives that can become unbearable. As said in a perfect world where there are services to fully help the victim or non victim I would be 100% against abortion.

Everyone has a chance to live, but what is living when your life could crumble around you due to lack of help and care...

 

Abortion. A word I always never liked to talk about. I always hated the word because it almost happened to me. I found this out right around my second year of high school. I was taking health class and the subject of abortion was the topic. For some reason, it bothered me. i was doing my homework on it when my dad asked me about it. I told him and he kind of got real quiet. Then he told me about when I was born. It happened a couple of months before that. My mom was having some serious problems and, apparently, it was affecting me in the womb. Mom was in the hospital when they ran tests and did a whole bunch of scans. The doctor said there was a 80 -90% chance I would't make it and it was causing her a great deal of pain. Mom was given drugs to help her sleep, so she was out. Dad told me the doc said, after weighing all options, an abortion was the best one to save mom. The nurses were getting ready to do the procedure. Dad asked them to try and see what they could do to keep me alive. Needless to say, I made it, but I came close to being aborted. When dad told me, I was pissed. I talked to mom about it and she confirmed it. So I wrote a essay about what dad told me and not only was my teacher shocked, so was the rest of the class. But no one was me shocked than me. So on a personal note, I'm against abortion.