Update: Apple Confederate flag decision. The removed games are back

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ap...utm_content=news_module&utm_campaign=homepage

And probably a few other sources.

Wow. I can't be the only one to see the absurdity in all this.

I had an old PC game that one of those games were based on. It taught me about the battle of Gettysburg and the roles that generals on both sides played.
Generals that I must point out are quite beloved and respected in today's armed forces.

smh

edit: Oh this might also belong on Hall of elders but I'm not really the debating type.

======================

Update- looks like the games are back. Apple changed its mind in the end.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/civil-war-game-featuring-confederate-flag-back-on-/1100-6428477/

 

Yeah, sounds about right for corporate morons. 6 corporations including names like Walmart, Ebay and Sears banned all Confederate flags from their stores, so now all the small independent stores are getting swamped with orders that some are actually backlogged just within 24 hours of that ridiculous decision. It's completely ridiculous that they associate a Confederate flag as a "contemporary symbol of divisiveness" when that's not at all what it stands for. The United States is now on the track towards reverting to the Dark Ages because some jackwagon decided it would be a great idea to distort a piece of history to further their political statement and agenda. Next, we'll be banning the United States flag and pushed to buy a politically correct version. Mark my words, some lunatic is going to try and do it and I have no doubt, it will definitely be instigated by imbeciles in the government offices. (Source)

Although my rant isn't particularly game related like your post, it is no doubt connected to the very bullshit excuse everyone else used: the Massacre in Charleston, SC.

 

I guess this is more meant for the Hall of Elders.

I've put my thoughts in a spoiler in an effort to keep on-topic, so as not to spam the thread with relevant, but somewhat off-topic conversation.

Read if you want. Or don't. Below are my thoughts on the whole storefront removal thing.

Spoiler

The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, btw.

I will say the the Confederate flag is a symbol of hate, racism, and (if nothing else) treason.

The Vice President of the CSA, Alexander Stephens, affirmed the CSA's devotion to the idea of white supremacy in 1861, stating that "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." These remarks were delivered during the Confederate Address, otherwise known as the "Cornerstone Speech", so named because it was said to express ideals that were the cornerstone of the Confederacy.

The Confederate flag actually wasn't flown over any capitol building (again) until the 60's, in response to the Civil Rights Movement. Thus, reaffirming it (and utilizing it) as a symbol of hatred.

Today it is used by various hate groups as their standard of choice. Neo-Nazis in Germany use the flag in place of the Nazi flag, due to the Nazi flag being illegal.

And, if all else fails, let us not forget that it represents a fractured nation, war against the United States, and an abandonment of all that we fought so dearly for against the most powerful nation in the world (at that time) not a century prior.

As an American from the south, I take no pride in the Confederate flag. It is not my heritage. The American flag is my heritage and it is the symbol of my nation.

Even if you ignore all of the insurmountable evidence of the intended meaning behind this flag, and the purposes which it has always served, the fact remains that it is a symbol of hate to many. Every American should feel represented by their government and such a symbol, perceived or objective (it's pretty historically objective), has no place flying over a government building.

I don't understand the "heritage" argument. Why would anyone be proud of that period in history? Germany would never fly the Nazi flag. And, if you feel that is too much, the U.S. wouldn't fly the Flag of the Kingdom of Great Britain (the "Union Flag", circa 1776). Yet that flag is more representative of American heritage than the Confederate flag.

Also, why the Confederate battle flag rather than the flag of the CSA? That's just kind of odd.

Still the Confederate flag is an important part of history and I feel it has a place in games, movies, museums, plays, re-enactments, etc. that are set in that period.

But I also feel that retailers have every right to determine what products they will or will not sell.

That said, I think retailers choosing not to sell the flag is a bit different than a digital storefront choosing not to sell games which may feature that flag (so long as those games are not of a discriminatory nature).

 

To reply to your thoughts in the spoiler: here is where we'll have to disagree and this is a lesson everyone should (needs to) be aware of and that many schools seem to have conveniently left out in their history lessons. The Confederate flag we all recognize and have seen countless times was a symbol of less federal government control and more State rights, not only that but it was a battle flag. Yes, some of those States rights might include slavery, however slavery, racism, and intolerance preached by liars was not what the flag actually stood for. What they're removing is the battle flag which was never made the national flag, so it couldn't be further from the truth of this myth of being a symbol of hatred. What people don't realize is that the government tends to conveniently leave out facts. There were more than one flag during the course of the war for the CSA, only 3 of them were national and none of them are the ones we commonly see today. Let's also not forget that our own "Old Glory" used to be a symbol of a nation that had slavery before the events leading up to the nation's divide, civil war and creation of the emancipation proclamation.

For this very reason, this is why I think the reasoning behind this ban by these corporate morons is a bullshit one. They're living in ignorance and the ignorant masses are eating it up and jumping on the bandwagon. You may not take pride in the Confederacy, but take pride in the battle flag. It represented the armies who fought for their own homes and reasons, not the reasons of white supremacy advocates. I'd also like to remind you that African Americans joined the Confederate army of their own free will under the very battle flag that is being banned by corporations. It's a crying shame that fact was left out by many schools.

 

Good, those redneck hillbillies don't deserve to have national pride.

 

Again, thoughts are too long and have been placed in a spoiler.

Spoiler

It is a battle flag. A battle flag of the Confederacy. =P "Battle flags" are military ensigns. They represent their respective armies. And those armies represent their nations. Militaries have no agendas, no ideals, no purposes of their own choosing, despite what some might have you believe. Every military, throughout history, has existed to fight their governments battles. And what did the Confederate army fight for? (Refer to the Cornerstone Speech).

Was every Confederate soldier a biggot? Maybe not. But the nation which they fought for was a nation founded on hatred and every flag flown by that nation, no matter how much meaning you try to impose on it, represents that nation and its ideals.

The United States had slavery at one point. So did just about every European nation. Here's the difference: around the time of the American Civil War many nations were abolishing slavery. This led the U.S. to two fundamental questions: 1) should the U.S. be a confederation of dissolvable, sovereign states or a nation under one sovereign federal government? 2) should the U.S. continue to keep slaves? A question born of the statement in the Declaration of Indepence stating that "all men are created equal."

There were several states that already opposed the keeping of slaves. When President Lincoln took office, he determined that states which had slaves could keep slaves but that U.S. territories would not have slavery.

This led to cessation by southern states who saw this as an affront to states' rights. After all, the U.S. was expanding (manifest destiny and all that) and slavery was a huge economic resource in the south. Thus the CSA was formed.

Although Lincoln originally had no intention of freeing slaves in slave holding states, the civil war did begin because of slavery. The CSA was formed in order to expand their territory and have the right to keep slaves in those territories.

There is the difference. The U.S. may have kept slaves. Many nations may have. But the U.S. was moving away from slavery (slowly, as with all things in government) while the CSA ceceded and went to war in the defense of slavery. The two do not equate.

There are good people on both sides of all conflicts throughout history. We hear stories of Nazi soldiers who did not share the state's ideals. But rather who were pressed into service, who fought for their lives, and their homes. Yet the nation they fought for existed on abhorant ideals and every standard they flew is viewed with disgust because of the principles for which those flags existed.

The ideals and beliefs behind individual soldiers belongs only to them. The flags they fly are the flags of their leaders and their leaders' ideals. To confuse that is to do those good individuals a disservice.

Some African Americans joined the CSA, but not because they though it would be a great place to live. Even more joined the Union when President Lincoln offered to free them from slavery.

There's still the fact that the flag was used as a response to the civil rights movent of the 60's. That's the whole reason it began being flown over capitol buildings again.

Any way you cut it, it was created to represent a nation founded on hate, it was utilized by states wishing to uphold segregation as a symbol of hate, and today it remains a symbol of hate being widely used by hate groups across the globe.

 

BREAKING NEWS. ......

Major retailers to no longer sell white sheets due to KKK affiliation.

Makes about as much sense.

 

It doesn't, actually. There's a difference between a flag that was created to represent a nation founded on the right to keep slaves and a sheet. By that logic we should probably ban water, since Hitler probably drank water. The difference is that water was not created by Hitler to represent his regime.

Hyperbole does not for sound reasoning make.

 

I am 100% behind said water ban.

 

And you fail to see that the battle flag is not the same as the national flag. You're hating on a battle flag, instead of the national flag and that is the problem with what these corporate morons are doing. Look up the confederate national flags, you'll quickly realize how asinine it is to ban the battle flag from their stores and games that use the battle flag. There's a reason the national flags of CSA rarely (if ever) fly anymore and why the battle flag was still allowed to be flown and why stores openly sold them up to the point of the massacre at Charleston, SC. It was never a symbol of hate. Now some jack wagon flies it and claims it is and all of a sudden it is? I'm calling bullshit on their reasoning skills. Remember the swastika? It's a religious symbol, but since Hitler incorporated it onto his Nazi flag, every ignorant jack wagon thinks the swastika is a symbol of hate.

You're showing your ignorance there. Not everyone flying the Confederate battle flag is a redneck hillbilly. You're a staff member, start acting like one.

 

No, I do recognize the difference. I even explained the difference. And I explained why it still represents the same values.

Every flag we fly today is representative of the United States, even military ensigns. It doesn't matter what meaning you try to impose on them. Military flags represent their respective militaries, and all militaries represent their nation and, more specifically, their nation's government. That's just how it's always been.

You're right, the Nazis did kinda ruin the swastika. But in western culture it represents hate. Like it or not, the Nazis succeeded in adapting that symbol for their own purposes.

If anything you've only lent more credibility to the swastika as opposed to the Confederate flag (any of them). The swastika may have begun as a religious symbol, but the Confederate flag was created as, and has always been used as, a symbol for hatred and discrimination.

 

Cry harder, that's my opinion. Those Southerners are what's wrong with America.

 

Games were brought back. Now I can reenact the Battle of Gettysburg without some idiot from up above telling me I'm a racist.

They should do a game based on Sherman's march down south. Bet Atlanta would try to ban it
Get it? Huh? Well?

Come on Im not the only one fascinated by history. (Or the occasional attempts to stifle it)

 

Honestly, I would like more games from that period. We often don't see too many games set in the French and Indian War, American Revolution, War of 1812, or the American Civil War. Seems like most games either take place in medieval/renaissance or ancient history or just skip to WWII.

 

A neglected chapter, very odd too considering it oversaw the entire dismantling of many monarchies.

 

I'm not sure how a developer might go about this, tastefully. But I would also like a game that intelligently explores European/American expansionism/manifest destiny, the settling of the Americas by Europeans/Americans, encroachment on native lands, and Native American history pre and post-European arrival. Played from the perspective of the Native Americans.

I think video games are a great medium for exploring history. They allow a unique perspective that films and books can't provide. I remember my interest in history kicking off after playing Age of Empires back in the day.

 

Playing from the prospective of a Native American could definitely be done. Especially in the west U.S, no one is going to cry foul if one of your quests is to kill some drunken lout in some random town run by a corrupt Sheriff.

Or maybe I could play as Cortez and discover the Aztecs have contacted their sun god who comes equipped with alien technology?

No wait I got one! You play as a member of the fictional united Indian tribe that has to repulse waves upon waves of superior equipped invaders!
And then to make people feel better about it we'll throw in a love interest who's actaully one of the pilgrims.

Yeees! Why not? It's a video game!