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Female Representation in Video Games

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by Colme, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Colme Canoeless Ascetic

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    Thought I'd fish for thoughts on this topic. It essentially goes without saying that female representation is a problem in terms of both quantity and quality. Women show up less often, and when they do, its often as prizes, motivation, or to be generally objectified.

    Recently I played through Metal Gear Rising: Revengenace with a female friend of mine, and we had been taking about the issues in that game series in particular. In that particular game there is only two female characters of much note and both are sexualized to different degrees. Worse perhaps than anything in Rising is this key female character to be featured in the upcoming Metal Gear Solid V:
    http://videogamewriters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/quiet-mgs-v.jpg

    The best game I've played in terms of female representation remains Silent Hill 3, with its female protagonist Heather who is handled perfectly, as a three-dimensional person first and foremost. Anyway, that should serve as enough context to promote conversation.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Eclipse Trophy Hunter

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    I love playing female characters in games and interacting with well-written ones. I think female protagonists are becoming more common, but I do agree the quality isn't always great. As for sexualization, I agree to an extent. I love Platinum (devs for MG Rising,) but they do tend to sexualize their female characters. But I feel like you have to separate that from other games. Yes, MGS V is a serious game and I hope they can make a great character out of this woman, but I can't say that Rising was ever meant to be taken seriously or that they truly objectified any female character. MAYBE in the DLC she was worse. Okami would be a better example with Sakura and Rao. But I still have hope. TellTale has been making some of the strongest characters in gaming recently, and I hope it starts a trend. Over time Nintendo's been making characters like Peach and Zelda more well-rounded. I'm not sure we should be focusing so much on the negative as many examples (DoA Extreme for one) are rarely taken seriously. I still would love more good female characters, but I'm not sure the "get the girl" motive is really used that much anymore. Hope I made my thoughts tangible enough.
     
  3. Heizengard AKA Cernel Joson

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    Let me say first that I agree with you, on almost everything. I don't remember Courtney in MGR being sexist in any shape of form and Mistral was just a one time boss fight, really nothing about those two to get worked up over IMO. Now as for the pic you posted, you do realize that the game she's from hasn't been released yet so we know nothing about this character. Hell, I've watched all the trailers so far and I've only seen her once. Too me it could be worse, plus we don't know how she'll act yet. Fan service and sexist characters, to me, have to act like... well fan service characters for me to call them sexist. Take Dead or Alive for example. I will agree that the game is incredibly sexist, but it's mostly by how they act, and secondly by their body shape and clothing.
     
  4. Colme Canoeless Ascetic

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    You [Eclipse] make a good, optimistic case I think, yes.

    As for Rising in particular, Mistral is more sexualized in the Blade Wolf DLC in particular, although its there in the base game as well. Furthermore, the only other female characters in the game are either 12 or Courtney, who is one button away from her shirt falling off. Its not a problem restricted to Platinum Games (since they didn't work on the other Metal Gear titles who had equally flagrant female characters), though they aren't exactly a breed apart, what with Bayonetta.

    I do rather hope, as you do, that things are improving, but the fact remains that its exceedingly rare to have female characters in video games that aren't exceedingly sexualized for the express purpose of being eye-candy to a male audience.


    As for Heizengard, the problem is in Courtney and Mistral's designs. If it were just Courtney it would be fine, just an overly-revealing top, but everything from the way Mistral talks and walks is problematic. To look at Quiet's design and not see a problem is ridiculous though; there is no male character in a Metal Gear game dressed in a remotely comparable way, the closest thing I can think of is Vamp, and even he has freakin' pants. This sort of thing isn't rare in video games either. One tree is a tree, several is a forest, dig?

    Clip for the Blade Wolf DLC concerning Mistral:
     
  5. BaconMan8910 Blue Bomber

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    I can't speak much on any MGS game past IV, since I've not played them. I could, however, rant about this topic for days so I'll try to keep this concise and condensed.

    Female representation in video games is a serious problem. For the longest time the game industry has geared it's marketing towards males, specifically CIS-gender, straight, teenage males. Er-go the protagonists in video games have, historically, been mostly males, often appearing as though they survive solely on protein shakes. This isn't to say that there is a problem with having males as protagonists in video games or that every game should have the option to play as a female or anyone of any other gender. BUT in games specifically tailored for a custom user experience (RPG's, for example) multiple genders should always be an option. It also helps if not all female NPC's or PC's are terribly objectified. (I'm not going to go into objectification because context is very important with that and it can be tricky).

    This has been a big issue with Ubisoft's latest installment in the Assassin's Creed franchise. Taking place during the French Revolution and allowing for a choice of 4 characters, all of which are male. Ubisoft's response is that it would be too expensive and time consuming in order to allow for a playable female character. I'll just link this video so that I won't be here all day hammering away at Ubisoft (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9437-Diversity-LIEversity).

    The fact is that there is a market for female characters and people of all genders should enjoy representation in gaming as a whole. Honestly, I think more female protagonists would be a great change of pace. Even as a CIS-gender male I often play as a female in games that allow it. I find it to be a nice change of pace from most games, I enjoy seeing what changes in the game due to my PC's gender, and I find it to be more of a challenge to role play.

    I'll leave you with a few more links to "Jimquisition" videos as I feel that Jim Sterling, of the Escapist, can speak much more in depth and eloquently on the issue than I can. I would also recommend checking out "the Jimquisition" series as a whole, and looking up some articles by Laura Kate Dale of Indie Haven.

    Links:
    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7916-Neutered
    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men
    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition
     
  6. Eclipse Trophy Hunter

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    @BaconMan8910 I've said my share, but I just wanted to put in two more cents about the whole AC Unity thing. It's overblown. These are characters who are going to be either carried over from your save or otherwise have no story behind them. In something like Saints Row, playing the female character as opposed to the male character doesn't really change anything. It might as well not be there. If it makes no difference, why is it such a big deal? Either they don't want to include female characters or it would take too much time to design the differences.
     
  7. BaconMan8910 Blue Bomber

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    I whole-heartedly disagree. In a game where there is a choice of protagonist there should be gender representation. It doesn't matter if it changes anything in the gameplay or story, if a female gamer would prefer to play as a female character in a game where there are multiple characters to choose from then she should be able to. If it doesn't matter or doesn't change anything then why not have a female character?

    Furthermore, I don't believe for an instant that it would take too much time or resources. Dark Souls, for example, had a budget of much less than that of most AAA titles and yet outshines most of them. Ubisoft has said that they plan to crap out an AC game every year "because that's what the fans want" (essentially to use it as a cash cow). If they took more time to allow them to work on and perfect their games, time wouldn't be an issue. With the kind of graphics, gameplay, and various NPC's and locations boasted by the AC series, I don't believe for an instant that they couldn't allocate a little time and money to allow for a female character.
     
    #7 BaconMan8910, Jun 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  8. Shogun13 Lord of the Dance

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    I'm sorta surprised this started as a "a friend convo" and not as an e3 spinoff topic, what with the baffling amount that this seemed to come up during that...
    I feel that it's getting better and in the way that it should, by it occurring almost unconsciously, but that comes at some costs.
    To explain, I think that the true measure of progress isn't how many non-objectified female characters exist, but rather whether or not their presence is objectified in itself through things like "This assassin's creed game has a woman, look at us being so avant garde". Granted I think the conscious ones might be necessary for the unconscious ones, but one is a commodity and the other is a recognition of reality. One can be passed off as a fad, the other is a sign of progress.
    I say that progress is being made for things like Splatoon or Hyrule Warriors, where being a girl is just sort of a given. Of course you can fight as Midna, she fights in the normal games etc. Telltale and most times The Last of Us makes me think it's not just Nintendo but the wider sphere of games (though sadly there was little of that this year at e3 from the west that I'd say was positive). I mean even Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite who is essentially the damsel in distress trope incarnate in terms of base story conception proves quite capable and is heralded as the best companions ever to come in videogames. Bethesda also has this in their companions in most games I'd say. The problem with some of those is their age placing them into more of a daughter role, but I feel like they are handled as capable despite their age in much the same vein that a young man would be. So while they might not be sexualized because of that, I think their strength goes above and beyond what the characters needed to be for storyline purposes and reflected an inner strength not otherwise present.
    The problem with unconscious progress is the wrinkles that come when they use older sexualized tropes in otherwise progressive manners. Smash bros is the golden example this generation. They're adding quite a few new female characters like the princess from Galaxy, the goddess from Kid Icarus, wii fit trainer, they're splitting Zelda and Sheik, and they're making samus into two characters as well. The problem is that almost each of these characters has some sort of flaw. The princess is still a princess with all of it's tropes and character flaws carrying over from Peach (in the original game she has little power and basically relies on Mario to help her). So it is less of a "of course she's a strong enough fighter" to "well she's an individual character, we can use her". The goddess from Kid Icarus was pretty sexualized by having her assume a "sexy pose" when she appeared in her introduction video. Wii fit trainer is barely more than a robot in the same way that Mr. Game and watch is. Zelda and Sheik splitting up means that their duality (which was sort of a mixed bag to be honest) is replaced with "a princess" as described above and an androgynous female character. The duality made it so that Zelda seemed more capable and Sheik seemed more feminine much like the next character. Before Zero Suit Samus would come out when Samus used her ultimate smash because armor powers down yada yada yada. Now Samus is sort of robbed of her femininity, though I think less so than Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus has so many problems I'm not sure I'm going to need to go into them. So the cost is that if you mess something up, you don't have the sense to think of it and thus fix it.
     
  9. Shogun13 Lord of the Dance

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    The design argument doesn't work because people who worked on Liberation said that most of Aveline's models used Kenway's as their base. They estimated that it would take two days of rendering probably. I know a year schedule is short, but two days is too much for something that you seemed to indicate might be possible? I think it especially is necessary considering context. From most accounts, the French Revolution is one of the most female impacted revolutions in the world. I believe there was a great deal of women who stormed the Bastille. Women appeared in more conflict than most other conflicts until almost the current era. It seems disingenuous to the time period as well...
     
  10. Eclipse Trophy Hunter

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    @Shogun13 I have to disagree on your points about Smash Bros. Palutena struck a pose because that's what SHAFT does. Characters were split due to competitive balancing. I'll discuss no further, as ot appears I'm alone in my beliefs here. I hope I'm not angering anyone or that you think any less of me.
     
  11. BaconMan8910 Blue Bomber

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    Nah, nothing wrong with disagreeing. It happens. :3
     
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  12. Shogun13 Lord of the Dance

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    No, all points you raised sounded very lucid to me. I guess I would expect Nintendo to have asked why she did that and "send it back" but then again I can't imagine that'd be cheap. I have no doubt balance is why they split, but it still affects the characters negatively. These are unconscious flaws I'd assume.
    I'm still upset about zero suit samus because body suit with flying high heels doesn't exactly scream serious bounty hunter. Granted part of that is because I think Nintendo should have pulled the reins on Team Ninja (which seems to have gotten the message anyways I think considering how Hyrule Warriors seems alright)...
     
  13. Shogun13 Lord of the Dance

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    Also considering current size of the forum I think everyone is pretty alone in their beliefs *rim shot*.
     
  14. ShadowLinks Hero of Time

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    Female representation in video games.....

    Well there are some game like DOA that are SUPER sexualized and very much intended for a male audience. But then again I've run into a lot of games recently that aren't doing that. The new Tomb Raider for example actually made a big effort to change Croft from a sex symbol back into a character again. Borderlands 2 (lol) even specifically include Ellie, a very strong will character that can take care of herself and could care less about being fat. Beyond: 2 Souls by Quantic Dream (Heavy Rain) was another game I just finished which really tried to put you in the shoes of a unique female character who you made choices for.

    Part of the big debate in my opinion is exactly how females should be represented. Just like guys there are many types of females, and not all are strong willed, nor are they all whores, or even average Janes. In a medium like games its not uncommon to only see one dimension of a character, not to mention you can't really express all they types of females in a single character. People have their own beliefs of what a "female character" is and should be, which makes them difficult to represent and difficult for a male audience to sometimes connect to.

    Now moving on past personality, we get to design. I don't have as much of an opinion here, but I tend to oversimplify it by chalking it up to the artist's preferences and game design typically being male dominated. (and then a little thing called fan service)

    Crap. I've written more than I wanted to and im not even sure if it makes sense....
     
  15. TheManWithoutAPlan Trophy Hunter

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    (Apologies if there is a written rule on posting in old-ish topics. This topic just caught my eye)

    I've talked to death with my friends over this topic, but it is always an interesting one to delve into. Generally we agree that female representation in video games isn't quite where it should be. There's just not enough prominent female characters. I think the easy way of fixing the representation of the gender when it comes to games, is just by having a greater amount of them and a greater variety. Eventually playing a female character in a game should be as normal as playing a male one. But to talk about the current representation of females, it's a very mixed bag. And my opinion on the designs of certain characters can fluctuate. I think sex appeal is fine in games so long as it is to the benefit of the character, and not pandering. But distinguishing what the intent of the sex appeal was can sometimes be hard.

    The Metal Gear series has already been discussed, so I'll take that as an example. Kojima is a very eccentric man when it comes to sexing up characters. From the very first MGS, both the female and male characters are subject to a lot of sexualization. I have watched several camera pans over Meryl's behind, I've controlled a naked Raiden and played as Snake in a speedo, I was rewarded for staring at a woman's breasts, and I've made plenty of male guards uncomfortable whilst searching them for ammo, over the course of the series. I don't think any of it benefits the series, none of it comes into play with the story (mostly). But I feel that it almost fits with the wacky world MGS is set in. The series is known for having a strange contrast of tones, going from "war is terrible" to "I heard you like castlevania" in mere minutes. I'd like to believe that Kojima is in on that joke, and that he doesn't depict females the way he does simply because boobs sell.
     
    #15 TheManWithoutAPlan, Oct 12, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2014

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